“But the movie never once turns to look at the boy who pulled the lever. It keeps him sympathetic and it makes her the freak.”
You’re the second person I’ve seen who has had this reaction to the film, and felt it didn’t prioritize Nikki’s phenomenology, just exploited the abject female. I completely disagree with your reading across the board, and I think the story arc, which ends with Bear having to commit suicide to end the curse, is the best counterargument. He’s the bad guy almost immediately, even though he’s the one being haunted by a crazy lady, that’s literally the foundational subversion of the monkey’s paw trope. I don’t think other people are missing anything, I think you missed something.
In the review, whether you’re in agreement with my position or not, I did support it. Don’t take me wrong. I don’t think that anyone’s obligated to read the entirety of any publication, but it kind of seems like maybe in this case you didn’t like what I said and didn’t finish, listening to the rest of the argument??? I do understand that it’s possible to flatly disagree with me, however just based on what you said it kind of sounds like you didn’t take in the entirety of it.
Then we’ll disagree. The problem lies with how the audience was made to feel toward Bear. Not by the outcome. Until the very end sympathy was drawn out of the viewer for his plight. We were made to feel that Bear’s end was accomplished by Nikki’s pursuit and not by his wish.
Thanks for this, Calvin, I hadn’t really thought about how this film exploits the female character for our viewing pleasure. You’re right, of course, and it is sad how callous the film is towards the Nikki character. It was a good film and well acted and directed for sure, but yeah, it left a bad taste in my mouth too. Horror films are almost never uplifting, but this one was especially dank. Bear turned out to be the true villain of the film, I think that much can be said.
As much as feminists are trying to turn this into a hit piece that only applies to men behaving badly, there are plenty of women who would do the same thing that Bear did to Nikki if they were in opposite positions. If we take the film metaphorically and not literally, it is a story about someone who traps someone else in a relationship because they are lonely. Women do this to men all the time and without thought or concern for their mate’s well being. For instance, the woman who traps a good man in a relationship by getting pregnant. She knows that the relationship isn’t built on his love for her, but she goes forward anyway, because she wants the relationship at all costs. She wants to ensnare him even if it means bringing a new life into the world that neither is ready for — to my mind that is the pinnacle of evil, as it involves the sacrifice of an innocent child to preserve a relationship that was never meant to be.
I am planning my own essay about this movie. There’s a great deal to talk about in it.
There's a lot to talk about here, and the film has generated a lot of useful discourse for sure. I don't think that was the intention, but you're right about it.
And you're right about the larger thing too: these are problems endemic to the human condition, and we should apply them broadly, not just to and about women. Anyone is capable of it — that's part of why the film works at all. It isn't really about one bad man.
But that's exactly why the piece I'd hold onto still matters. The reason it's worth talking about with women specifically isn't that men are uniquely guilty of it. It's that the offense has fallen disproportionately on women, historically, at a scale and with a structure that are their own fact. Saying so doesn't turn it into a hit piece. It keeps it accurate.
It should never happen to anyone. It has happened to women more than anyone. Both of those are true, and neither one cancels the other.
I was talking about the movie Obsession. I’m not sure what Gone Girl has to do with my observations in a wholly different movie that are wholly different observations. The issues that I outlined don’t resemble those that are contained in Gone Girl. Yes the problems that I’m talking about should be observed broadly, and no one should suffer this way. But the burden has been disproportionately and historically placed on the shoulders of women. If I saw a movie where a young man was beat up and treated like this I would’ve come to his defense, also. You can be sure of it. Honey, you should bring up SVU. I worked on that show for 10 years. I can’t watch it without getting sick to my stomach. The people responsible for the weekly chumming of that content or some of the worst I’ve ever known in my life.
I still recall the furor over “Gone Girl” for making women look bad by exposing just how extreme some could be. Even taken with a grain of salt, the stuff you’d hear in BPD-related fora were chilling at best.
Is it “all women?” No, but pretending that women don’t have their own different moral failings that they tend to fall into, foibiles, and weaknesses, and covering up that some, just as some men, are outright evil, doesn’t help feminism in the end.
In part what broke the cultural programming I had, starting back in the late 70’s as early as I can remember, was the discrepancy between what I had been TAUGHT by PSA’s, books, and culture, and what I was observing. Both for good and for bad. There came a point, especially the coverup or dismissal of anything with bad optics, that rubbed me the wrong way, and convinced me they were dishonest.
Aside: Law and Order:SVU is the longest running fantasy series on TV. On the rare occasions the perp isn’t the straight white male, they’re usually responding to or duped by such.
I don’t know if you remember the saga of Mary Kay LeTourneau, a married-with-children schoolteacher who seduced her 12 year old student Vili Fualaau and got pregnant with two of his children. One of the children she had with Fualaau was conceived before she went to prison for statutory, the other was conceived in a car after being briefly released on condition that she never see Fualaau again. Fualaau ended up raising both of his daughters on his own when he was essentially still a child himself. Once LeTourneau got out of prison, she trapped Fualaau in what looks to have been an utterly miserable marriage of 14 years. They were separated in 2019 and she died of colon cancer in 2020. I think we can safely say that Mary Kay LeTourneau ruined Vili Fualaau’s life, but at least he was able to make the best of it. He seems to have been an excellent father to his daughters. Mary Kay LeTourneau, keep in mind, had four children by her husband when she started messing around with her 12 year old student. Just because the grooming of Vili wasn’t as blatantly forced as the relationship in Obsession does not mean it was not hideously sick and disgusting.
Can’t exactly paint her as an angel, huh? To her credit, she left him a big chunk of her estate when she popped off. Small compensation for trashing his entire life before he hit his teens though.
I have not seen or read Gone Girl, so thanks for this as I missed it both coming and going. SVU is another one I have not watched regularly, though I know the general layout and premise of the show.
I recall the author of Gone Girl was puzzled why she was catching so much flack. "I had family like that.." or something to that effect. i.e. people like that exist, why are you asking me to pretend they don't and mad about it?
Hold on am I mad? Because that’s not in the emotion in the room here at all. Just because people are having… you said something and I pulled up a chair. I thought you wanted to talk about it. This doesn’t have anything to do with being mad. So are you taking the position that anyone who has a different view than you is mad at you?Because that just can’t be true, even mathematically. You may have seen a little bit of anger bubble up toward the dip shits in the production office for SVU, but that’s about the extent of it
I think you may have misunderstood the context of what you were replying to. I was referring to a half – remembered interview with the author of gone girl, responding to the criticism she was receiving when the film came out.
I agree that Obsession alone will change much the way Blair Witch or Sex Lies as these breakouts are hard to duplicate. I’m sure we’ll see a bunch of Obsession knockoffs the same way but typically yeah they aren’t that good. My hope is there is a meaningful shift towards genre filmmaking again instead of constant IP. I’m not expecting a total sea change but it would be good to mix it up more. And Sex Lies did signal an early push of good indie 90’s films. I don’t think Obsession will probably inspire young filmmakers as much as Soderberg did to make something new and inventive. But I’m hoping. Maybe it’s the start of something.
Yeah, well it’s not that I have a problem with the concept of an IP. There have been some successful efforts that lasted for a while, but they don’t seem to be, in any way, sustainable. They’ve all been abused within an inch of their life. Yeah, it is a pleasure to just watch a great story unfold from end to end.
I can see the argument that the film kind of has it both ways... but maybe that's what has prompted so much discussion about it. I think it would be pretty unusual for most viewers to find Bear sympathetic by the end of the film. He is also ultimately (though briefly) punished by being put in the same situation as Nikki before choking to death.
“But the movie never once turns to look at the boy who pulled the lever. It keeps him sympathetic and it makes her the freak.”
You’re the second person I’ve seen who has had this reaction to the film, and felt it didn’t prioritize Nikki’s phenomenology, just exploited the abject female. I completely disagree with your reading across the board, and I think the story arc, which ends with Bear having to commit suicide to end the curse, is the best counterargument. He’s the bad guy almost immediately, even though he’s the one being haunted by a crazy lady, that’s literally the foundational subversion of the monkey’s paw trope. I don’t think other people are missing anything, I think you missed something.
In the review, whether you’re in agreement with my position or not, I did support it. Don’t take me wrong. I don’t think that anyone’s obligated to read the entirety of any publication, but it kind of seems like maybe in this case you didn’t like what I said and didn’t finish, listening to the rest of the argument??? I do understand that it’s possible to flatly disagree with me, however just based on what you said it kind of sounds like you didn’t take in the entirety of it.
Then we’ll disagree. The problem lies with how the audience was made to feel toward Bear. Not by the outcome. Until the very end sympathy was drawn out of the viewer for his plight. We were made to feel that Bear’s end was accomplished by Nikki’s pursuit and not by his wish.
Thanks for this, Calvin, I hadn’t really thought about how this film exploits the female character for our viewing pleasure. You’re right, of course, and it is sad how callous the film is towards the Nikki character. It was a good film and well acted and directed for sure, but yeah, it left a bad taste in my mouth too. Horror films are almost never uplifting, but this one was especially dank. Bear turned out to be the true villain of the film, I think that much can be said.
As much as feminists are trying to turn this into a hit piece that only applies to men behaving badly, there are plenty of women who would do the same thing that Bear did to Nikki if they were in opposite positions. If we take the film metaphorically and not literally, it is a story about someone who traps someone else in a relationship because they are lonely. Women do this to men all the time and without thought or concern for their mate’s well being. For instance, the woman who traps a good man in a relationship by getting pregnant. She knows that the relationship isn’t built on his love for her, but she goes forward anyway, because she wants the relationship at all costs. She wants to ensnare him even if it means bringing a new life into the world that neither is ready for — to my mind that is the pinnacle of evil, as it involves the sacrifice of an innocent child to preserve a relationship that was never meant to be.
I am planning my own essay about this movie. There’s a great deal to talk about in it.
There's a lot to talk about here, and the film has generated a lot of useful discourse for sure. I don't think that was the intention, but you're right about it.
And you're right about the larger thing too: these are problems endemic to the human condition, and we should apply them broadly, not just to and about women. Anyone is capable of it — that's part of why the film works at all. It isn't really about one bad man.
But that's exactly why the piece I'd hold onto still matters. The reason it's worth talking about with women specifically isn't that men are uniquely guilty of it. It's that the offense has fallen disproportionately on women, historically, at a scale and with a structure that are their own fact. Saying so doesn't turn it into a hit piece. It keeps it accurate.
It should never happen to anyone. It has happened to women more than anyone. Both of those are true, and neither one cancels the other.
I was talking about the movie Obsession. I’m not sure what Gone Girl has to do with my observations in a wholly different movie that are wholly different observations. The issues that I outlined don’t resemble those that are contained in Gone Girl. Yes the problems that I’m talking about should be observed broadly, and no one should suffer this way. But the burden has been disproportionately and historically placed on the shoulders of women. If I saw a movie where a young man was beat up and treated like this I would’ve come to his defense, also. You can be sure of it. Honey, you should bring up SVU. I worked on that show for 10 years. I can’t watch it without getting sick to my stomach. The people responsible for the weekly chumming of that content or some of the worst I’ve ever known in my life.
I still recall the furor over “Gone Girl” for making women look bad by exposing just how extreme some could be. Even taken with a grain of salt, the stuff you’d hear in BPD-related fora were chilling at best.
Is it “all women?” No, but pretending that women don’t have their own different moral failings that they tend to fall into, foibiles, and weaknesses, and covering up that some, just as some men, are outright evil, doesn’t help feminism in the end.
In part what broke the cultural programming I had, starting back in the late 70’s as early as I can remember, was the discrepancy between what I had been TAUGHT by PSA’s, books, and culture, and what I was observing. Both for good and for bad. There came a point, especially the coverup or dismissal of anything with bad optics, that rubbed me the wrong way, and convinced me they were dishonest.
Aside: Law and Order:SVU is the longest running fantasy series on TV. On the rare occasions the perp isn’t the straight white male, they’re usually responding to or duped by such.
I don’t know if you remember the saga of Mary Kay LeTourneau, a married-with-children schoolteacher who seduced her 12 year old student Vili Fualaau and got pregnant with two of his children. One of the children she had with Fualaau was conceived before she went to prison for statutory, the other was conceived in a car after being briefly released on condition that she never see Fualaau again. Fualaau ended up raising both of his daughters on his own when he was essentially still a child himself. Once LeTourneau got out of prison, she trapped Fualaau in what looks to have been an utterly miserable marriage of 14 years. They were separated in 2019 and she died of colon cancer in 2020. I think we can safely say that Mary Kay LeTourneau ruined Vili Fualaau’s life, but at least he was able to make the best of it. He seems to have been an excellent father to his daughters. Mary Kay LeTourneau, keep in mind, had four children by her husband when she started messing around with her 12 year old student. Just because the grooming of Vili wasn’t as blatantly forced as the relationship in Obsession does not mean it was not hideously sick and disgusting.
Oh shit... forgot about that one
Can’t exactly paint her as an angel, huh? To her credit, she left him a big chunk of her estate when she popped off. Small compensation for trashing his entire life before he hit his teens though.
I have not seen or read Gone Girl, so thanks for this as I missed it both coming and going. SVU is another one I have not watched regularly, though I know the general layout and premise of the show.
I recall the author of Gone Girl was puzzled why she was catching so much flack. "I had family like that.." or something to that effect. i.e. people like that exist, why are you asking me to pretend they don't and mad about it?
Hold on am I mad? Because that’s not in the emotion in the room here at all. Just because people are having… you said something and I pulled up a chair. I thought you wanted to talk about it. This doesn’t have anything to do with being mad. So are you taking the position that anyone who has a different view than you is mad at you?Because that just can’t be true, even mathematically. You may have seen a little bit of anger bubble up toward the dip shits in the production office for SVU, but that’s about the extent of it
I think you may have misunderstood the context of what you were replying to. I was referring to a half – remembered interview with the author of gone girl, responding to the criticism she was receiving when the film came out.
I agree that Obsession alone will change much the way Blair Witch or Sex Lies as these breakouts are hard to duplicate. I’m sure we’ll see a bunch of Obsession knockoffs the same way but typically yeah they aren’t that good. My hope is there is a meaningful shift towards genre filmmaking again instead of constant IP. I’m not expecting a total sea change but it would be good to mix it up more. And Sex Lies did signal an early push of good indie 90’s films. I don’t think Obsession will probably inspire young filmmakers as much as Soderberg did to make something new and inventive. But I’m hoping. Maybe it’s the start of something.
Yeah, well it’s not that I have a problem with the concept of an IP. There have been some successful efforts that lasted for a while, but they don’t seem to be, in any way, sustainable. They’ve all been abused within an inch of their life. Yeah, it is a pleasure to just watch a great story unfold from end to end.
I can see the argument that the film kind of has it both ways... but maybe that's what has prompted so much discussion about it. I think it would be pretty unusual for most viewers to find Bear sympathetic by the end of the film. He is also ultimately (though briefly) punished by being put in the same situation as Nikki before choking to death.